14 thoughts on “Earhart’s: “Grey 17 is Missing” Spoiler Space”

  1. I suppose you know, intellectually, that it’s all downhil from the Holy Trilogy onwards – after all, it’s the mid-point of the series. In hindsight, however, we know that not all that long after Severed Dreams comes War Without End, one of the high points of the show! But then immediately after… comes THIS, and then you know that, metaphorically speaking, Winter Is Coming.

    That there will be A Bloody Awful Lot Of Ships, and Efrem Zimbalist burbling on about vital powers, and Lyta threatening to sue. Garibaldi drinking. The White Star called Nina. Penn and Teller. Bo and Mack. Sheridan’s socks. That guy, that extra, who stands right behind Delenn’s shoulder during her farewell speech. Yes, Lochley too, but I don’t really hold that against her. And then – and this is the bit that the Grinch liked the least – the Teeps will join hands and they’ll sing, and they’ll sing, and they’ll sing sing sing sing!

    Guys, I think you’re gonna have to come to a decsion, make an announcement, about if/when/how you’re going to handle the movies, the spin-offs on the podcast. Because the only way we’re going to get past season 5 is if we know there’s Crusade to come (and Legends Of The Rangers, granted, but I can remain in denial about that a bit longer).

    1. There’s good stuff, too, in S5. (Actually, I’d even defend the Byron arc as not being as bad as people say, but let’s wait until our hosts get there.)

      And S4 has aged quite well. When I originally watched it, it felt rushed. But when I rewatched in this century, the faster pace of S4 just made it feel like contemporary television.

    2. I find season 4 quite entertaining as well. “Actually, now that you mention it…” Love that scene in particular, though it will have unfortunate ramifications for Centari prime.

      And that, to me, is the gold to be found in season 5. It’s not about the central conflict anymore, it is about picking up the pieces and dealing with the fallout.

      i had a whole rant typed out about why I think season 5 is far better than most people give it credit for, but I think I will follow Voord’s example and wait until we actually get there. I will just leave it at saying that some of my favorite individual scenes are actually in season 5.

  2. The Neroon plot strikes me as being portrayed as having strangely low stakes given how the Minbari and the broader universe have been constructed.

    Given what we know of Minbari politics and bloodlust, it seems there would be a fair chance of them falling into civil war if either Delenn or Neroon died at the hands of the other (or at the hands of their followers). If a Minbari civil war started at this point, they’d be too busy fighting each other to fight the Shadows, and the outcome of the entire Shadow war could be put at risk.

    Further, if Neroon had succeeded in killing Delenn, he’d likely be killed by Sheridan, and warrior caste could destroy B5 in retaliation. That *would* be the end of the anti-Shadow alliance.

    There’s an awful lot more at stake than the episode seems to realize.

    And yet, Delenn treats Neroon’s assassination plot with a surprising degree of calmness, as if the only thing at stake was her own life (which she’s never cared too much about) and shows no concern for the potential second-order consequences of what might happen as a result of her being killed by a member of the warrior caste.

    Neroon, of course, doesn’t show any signs of being worried about second-order consequences at all.

    I think the Minbari plot would have felt more integrated into the broader world if Neroon and Delenn had realized some of this and followed up with an epiphany that their castes’ conflict needed to be buried–for everyone’s sake–until after the Shadows had been dealt with.

    As a side note, I also think the omission of a scene between Delenn and Sheridan where they (try to) talk over what happened was unfortunate. It would have been good to see how little Delenn told Sheridan about what just happened and how Sheridan reacted to Delenn’s compulsive secrecy, not just for character/relationship development but also for foreshadowing.

    Instead we got a Zarg.

  3. Great episode of the podcast,

    I’d like to throw in different Point-of-view on the panels discussion of Delenn and her wielding of the power that comes with being “The One.”
    I’m not convinced that “the ONE” as Zathras talked about it is “necessarily” synonymous with being “Entil-Zha”
    • the one who WAS – Sinclair a thousand years ago (not currently – even though he is/was the current Entil-Zha during the episode)
    • the one who WILL BE – Sheridan in the “future” (or near future – please keep reading)
    • and, the ONE who IS – Delenn

    I would argue that Delenn has been the “ONE who IS” for over 10 years at this point in the B5 timeline. She started AND ended the Earth-Mimbari War, she was the chosen to lead the Grey Council, She consorted with the Vorlon’s about the coming Shadow War, she began construction of the Whitestar Fleet, she went through the Chrysalis to bring humans and Mimbari back together – she has been a major player in interstellar politics for over a decade. Delenn almost single-handedly set the stage for the NEW Shadow War and the Army of Light.

    Sheridan’s ascendancy to “the One who WILL BE” begins when Delenn shares her Authority with him. It will then grow at Z’ha’dum, during the Shadow War, with the Interstellar Alliance – and finally, will end in legend with him holding the position of Ranger One – “Entil-Zha.”

    I think the term “the One” means the person who is a “NEXUS” as Justin will put it on Z’ha’dum. The ONE who can change the course of history.

    As Sebastian said: “The Right person, in the right Place, at the Right Time.

    Just a thought…

  4. Lennier will risk getting Marcus killed because he loves her and Marcus goes along with it, because he lives her too. Lennier understands this, but I think it’s safe to say he’s using Marcus, subconsciously well as consciously.

    Perhaps more seriously, if this was anyone else, we can picture Marcus having had back up. One PPG shot to Neroons arm would have changed the outcome, probably not for the better, as we find out in the twist, though perhaps there wouldn’t be three broken ribs.

    1. No backup. I don’t see Marcus doing anything differently. Marcus sees himself (consciously or unconsciously) as a romantic figure from the old stories. Proving a point with a self-sacrificial quarterstaff duel is far more “Marcus” than a team of snipers ambushing Neroon.

        1. Indeed. My point rather was about how Lennier acted, in terms of what is to come regarding his own personal ‘fall.’

          Not that I’m sure he would have acted differently.

  5. The comments about ‘bootstrap paradox’ and Sinclair creating Minbari religion don’t make sense to me.

    Sinclair/Valen influenced Minbari culture picking up on the already present Vorlon influence.

    Am I the only person seeing a Religious Caste Kosh and a Warrior Cast Alkesh?

    Alkesh’s suit even looks like a Vorlon version of Neroon’s hooded warrior look

    1. Not sure about the caste thing but you are right about the Minbari probably already having a Vorlon based religion. The Sisters of Valeria were mentioned in this episode and Valeria was the name mentioned by the Minbari for the unsuited Kosh. My understanding was that Sinclair/Valen’s role during his lifetime was more political and military. He united the castes putting an end to the constant warfare between the religious and warrior castes by creating the Grey Council and inserting the workers as a buffer between the two. The “bootstrap paradox ” probably more applies to the structure of Minbari government.

  6. None of the hosts mentioned the elephant in the room with the Gray 17 plot. I can see the guy in the rubber suit…Okay, it was dumb, but one of the most beloved episodes of Star Trek TOS was Arena, the guy in the rubber suit.

    The biggest problem I had was Garibaldi’s deus ex machina solution to the zarg (I keep wanting to call it a zerg, but that is a different thing. 🙂 )…He ended up killing the zarg, the perfect carnivore, the perfect killer, by first shooting steam on him, and then loading 6 .38 rounds into a metal pipe and using steam to detonate them? I love most of how Jerry Doyle plays Garibaldi, but this is a McGyver solution, that absolutely would not work.

    Oh, where to start. First of all, sticking a bunch of bullets in a steel tube does not a machine gun make. Second of all, steam is _not_ going to detonate a bullet. Okay, let’s imagine it is some kind of greater-than-212-degree space steam that would detonate .38 bullets…In that case, the rear round would detonate, and with all of the rounds in front of it, the shell casing would eject out of the back of his makeshift firearm. Remember equal and opposite reaction? The explosion of the primer and powder would shove the shell casing back into the steam pipe rather than push the projectile (and the five bullets stacked ahead of it) out the end of the barrel…Or explode the steel tube he was using as a barrel.

    And even if he could get them to fire, his grandmother’s .38 service revolver has a rifled barrel to stabilize the bullet’s trajectory. Kind of like the stability of a spinning top. Without that, none of the rounds would have likely come anywhere close to the zarg, for the same reason that John Wilkes Booth had to have his derringer almost in contact with the back of Abraham Lincoln’s head. Because derringers of the time (without rifled barrels) were only accurate out to a couple of feet.

    So this, for me was the greatest irritant of the episode.

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